USS Enterprise vs the Battlestar Galactica

[Crilix]

But Star Wars gots the Death Star!

 

On a serious note though, (as serious as one can get for such a discussion, anyways) I think Jamie has a serious point for BSG>Star Trek. I don't know if we can say with certainty that Sharon can infect any and all computer networks, but if she does that's one heckuva trump card.

-Cril

[Colossus]

Actually im going to dig up my link where these insane geeks went into HIGHLY technical comparisons wherein star wars made star trek look like fools.

 

Star wars > Star Trek.. than anything its fact.

[Nova]

lol well i give props to the porno haha

[VaderOnIce]

Omg. This is STILL going on? PICARD PWNS JOO NUBS!

 

Actually, Captain Sisko and his cloaked USS Defiant pwns you all. You can't shoot what you can't see, kids.

[Colossus]

Here it is.. extensive read with technical comparisons on why SW will always own all EAT IT http://www.fnfclan.com/uploads/uploads/emoticons/default_tongue.png

 

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/

 

On shielding

 

"we find that an Acclamator(military transport) has more than 20 billion times the shield system heat dissipation of a Galaxy Class Starship, and that is not a typo."

 

"Of course, it should come as no surprise that SW shields are far stronger, but they also have the benefit of being far more difficult to circumvent through trickery." - There goes your beaming into space idea http://www.fnfclan.com/uploads/uploads/emoticons/default_tongue.png

 

Reading into it a bit more too - the star fighters carry enough explosives in their x-wings to rip apart anything the Federation, Klingons, Borg, etc can throw at them.. AND THEN you're dealing with capital ships.. i love the superiority of star wars http://www.fnfclan.com/uploads/uploads/emoticons/default_biggrin.png

[VaderOnIce]

We need to get the guys that wrote that shit some hookers.

[Berzerker]

The thing I dont like about that debate marty is the absurd numbers that the Star Wars ships deal with. At least Star Trek is based as much on real fake scientific theories.

 

A billion Trillion megatons... WTF its just not believable. Well as believable as this topic can be. Star Wars facts are just made up numbers. Star Trek numbers are based on scientific theories.

 

If you go on this debate you could create a new Sci Fi series and make thier numbers even bigger than the Star Wars ones. That doesnt give it any more credibility though. The only numbers that you can scientifically explain would be from the Death Stars Death Ray. It Exploded a Planet and you can base its power from that aspect.

 

Berz out.

[etru_scan]

Holy fuck, i didn't think this post would get nearly this kind of attention.. And since i havent so much as posted a single reply, this shit is definitely on !

 

 

OK - first things - which versions of which - To keep it simple, we're talking about the original Enterprise ( Kirk-captained ) versus the the only Battlestar that matters - the one from the current series. It's ideantical to the original, so it doesnt matter, with ONE exception - The " Cylon Factor "

 

Im going to say right now that shouldn't be counted - Because the Enterprises's systems are networked, a successful attack could end the fight before it started, and thats no fun, so lets take that out of the equation.

 

One corresponding thing i think needs to be taken out of the Enterprises side of the equation is the whole teleporter thing. Sure. If they could find the right spot, they could beam the entire CIC into space and the fights over before it started. OK, well, then we dont have a discussion, so.. i think that should be discounted - Also for the fact that im not really sure what their limits are on what/how much they can transport at once.

 

Can the enterprise actually transport a 'chunk' of whatevr they want to any location they want ? Dont they have to 'locate' the right crew members first ? And how would they know which to transport ? Furthermore, the BSG is a Military vessel. The fight can carry on till no mans are left standing - people get their orders and carry them out untill ordered otherwise. Granted the 'headless chicken' effect would severly hamper ANY ships offensive efficacy, but.. im just saying - just cause the command structure is taken out does not nescecarily mean the fight is over.

 

So - unless someone can explain how those teleporters 'actually' work, i dont think thats a fair tactic you can employ. But even in the case where they can teleport the command team one by one, or a few at a time, into space - then see argument above.

 

 

The thing that makes me side with the Galactica first and foremost is that it's a *battlestar* .. You know.. a warship ? Look at the field of fire it can put out. It has nuclear capabilities, and most important of all.. It can jump.

 

Whatever strength a proton torpedo has, we know this much - The Galactica has taken a direct hit from a nuke and basically kept on trucking. It can survive in freaking *atmosphere* for christs sake - it's built like a brick shit house from the future. Add the fact that all systems are redundant ( to an extent ) and not linked and you have one tough bastard of a ship that can take ridiculous amounts of damage both inside and out.

 

Another thing i think is worth noting is that you never see the little windows to the CIC from the outside of the ship, ala the Enterprise - That structure is buried deep in the ship, which speaks to the overall design mentality. The ship is meant to go toe-to-toe with Base Stars and all their assorted attack vectors - Rail guns, conventional and nuclear missiles, Cylon Raiders ( heavy and light ) and even the possibility of wireless/computer infiltration or attack.

 

 

So about these shields that the enterprise has.. Right.. They deflect energy based on the frequency, so only the most massive explosions like nukes could even hope to 'pass through' some destructive force onto the ship - basically not enough to harm the enterprise even taking into account the 'soft spot' the shields have near the exhaust nozelles around back. I understand there was an episode where a nuke got close to the enterprise and detonated and this actually damaged the ship ( through the shields, no less ) but lets ignore that for now for this reason : facing a seemingly impenetrable shield i dont think they crew of the BSG would bother pounding and pounding with anything other than their gun batteries ( which would certainly give their shields something to chew on )

 

I think that if you had this opponent with such a tough shell, they only thing to do would be to find a way inside it.. Hmmm.. how might one do that ? mmmn, maybe take a raptor and jump *inside* the shield ? Say, maybe an un-crewed raptor, loaded with a nuclear missile with ' Love, from Adama ' painted on the side of it ?

 

So tell me, whats kirk going to do about that ? The way it looks to me is that barring the ability to find and teleport the entire CIC into space within the first seconds of a confrontation, the enterprise has a few heavy , fairly destructive weapons to bring to bear ( torpedos, phasers ) and one very, very hard shield to pass *through* , but nothing much else except Kirk's Ego.. Which admittedly is probably enough to do the job on its own, but.. lets face it.. a nuke goes off inside that shield an poof ! they're boldly going where many enemies have gone before... into space as highly irradiated little chunks of space debris !

 

Edit: Oh yeah... And just for the heck of it, check the size comparison on this handy, nerd-tastic chart : http://www.people.iup.edu/pnwm/comparison.gif

 

Battlestar Galactica : 1,265 Meters

USS Enterprise NX Class: 225 Meters.

 

ya huh.

[VaderOnIce]

I was talking about this with Jamie, actually (the jump an explosive filled Raptor INTO the Enterprise) and my only problem with that is that I was wondering whether or not it takes 20 minutes to calculate the jump solution or not? I can't recall if it's just the FTL drives that have to do something or if the jump solution takes that long. So that's 1 thing.

 

Second, the enterprise can beam whatever the fuck it wants wherever the fuck it wants. The only reason they "lock on" to humans is because they want to keep the integrity of the transport beam at maximum. In other words, if they beam a chunk of Galactica's hull away and it doesn't look like it did when it was ON Galactica, it doesn't matter. But if Geordi LaForge (why does a black guy have a French fucking name?) comes back with his goggles half an inch INSIDE his head, there's a problem.

 

As for nukes going off against the Enterprise's hull, they have definitely sustained hits against their hull from things stronger than nuclear weapons before and survived. I think it was Jamie that brought up the Borg to me. Do you really count the Cylons up there with the Borg? THen again, we're talking about Kirk here, so they don't really apply.

 

We have to come to a consensus on a few things. What kind of damage do BSG's nukes do?

 

What's the deal on the jump solution thing?

 

What the fuck is the context here? Who shoots first, more importantly?

 

If the Enterprise has its shields down and Adama has a jump-into-the-enterprise's-warp core-capable Raptor, then Star Trek is pretty much fucked. But if there's some vortex and they meet for the first time, bet your ass that the Enterprise's shields are NOT down. Also, the Enterprise has energy weapons. Do you really think the phasers aren't going to take down a slow (compared to a phaser shot) nuke firing from BSG at the Enterprise?

 

Guys, I LOVE BSG more than the old star trek and Star Trek the next generation (but not Deep Space Nine. Yet). I love Adama's FUCK YOU attitude and I love how gritty they are. But from a tactical standpoint, BSG is at a huge disadvantage.

[Berzerker]

Main phasers: 3.6 GW (5.1 MW per emitter, 200 emitters in the main phaser array, 2 full-sized saucer arrays and 3 smaller roughly half-size arrays on the stardrive section, p.123). Note that phasers appear to have a chain-reaction effect so their raw power output may be deceptively low.

 

 

Thats alot of phaser power. Add that to the Photon Torpedo's... and you got one hell of an onslaught.

 

Berz out.

[etru_scan]

Ok - Context is important, so lets assume this ( what i originally imagined )

 

The two square off, ready for combat, with minimal but accurate intel on the other ships.. This seems reasonable to me, since really - sussing out your enemy is a huge priority in the regular operation of both ships and this capability can be safely assumed.

 

As for jumping, ill say what i know - Preparing for a jump seems to vary depending on the circumstances. Going farther away seems harder to 'calculate' and this makes some sense. We have evidence that from a cold start ( the last episode of season three, the entire fleet loses power and Helo informs Adama it will take 20 minutes before they can jump ) ... which says to me that this is the QUICKEST they can jump from a complete shutdown, jump calculations included. However, we've seen many instances where the Galactica has jumped out of the middle of a battle with only a few minutes to prepare to avoid getting trounced by basestars.. so really.. im going to put the time it takes at a nebulous ' couple minutes ' ... The best example to defend that number is the episode in season three when the Galactica jumps *into atmosphere* , free falls long enough to deploy its vipers, and then jumps away, long before hitting the ground.

 

yes, it COULD take a while for the ship to fall all the way to the ground, but really - what are we talking about ? A couple minutes, right ? MAYBE ten ?? I dont even think it was that much, tbh - i think ' a few minutes ' is reasonable.

 

 

So that answers that more or less.

 

A few more things i wanna try and head off at the pass, too - Discussions about how powerful this gun is, versus how powerful that laser is, versus how strong that nuke is, is, i think.. pointless. We'll never truly know, they ships ARE from different eras/technologies so getting really specific about things like power output and shit just isn't going to go anywhere. We have to make some general assumptions about stuff and keep the discussion's context firmly in mind : Its a ridiculous, hypothetical situation that will never truly have a 'proven winner' - but we can discuss certainties and likelihoods and come to some reasonably assumptions as to whos' likelier to win.

 

 

Now, one last thing i think we need to discuss - The use of teleporters as weapons. Frank, im going to call bullshit on the enterprise being able to teleport huge, arbitrary chunks of matter away from other ships on the grounds that 1) if this were so, we wouldn't have a discussion. 2) if that were possible, why would the enterprise have *any* other weapons at all ? If you could easily beam any point of matter to any point in space, who could stop you ? its the ultimate weapon. Got a romulan attack ? teleport the bridges into the sun ! nobody could get near the ship, full stop. 3) I've already conceded that although we've even seen Sharon the Cylon use her ability to infiltrate extremely hardened/protected systems ( eg Cylon Base Star ) via remote ' hacker attack' vectors, this would not be a factor in this battle. For the very same reason as #1 above - If Sharon could infiltrate the Enterprises highly integrated systems remotely, the battle would be over before it began - the crew could be vented to space, proton torpedoes detonated in their launch tubes, core pushed to explode, whatever you like. So i'd like to discount that and keep the discussion to a battle based on military might alone, more or less. ( using the teleporter as a weapon is fine, im just saying ending the fight before it begins by teleporting the Galacticas bridge into a nearby sun has never been shown to be possible or even a viable tactic, and shouldn't be considered ' possible ' )

 

 

So here's some more points i think show the Galactica, a Battlestar, would destroy the Enterprise tout suite:

 

http://www.fnfclan.com/uploads/uploads/post-32-1176322896.jpg

 

Scale HAS to count for something here, considering the biggest scale-negating weapon the enterprise has are it's 'nuke torpedos', weapons the galactica has taken a direct hit from and survived readily. Yeah, ill admit a 'proton' torpedo is supposed to be all scary powerful, but if we put it at roughly *twice* as powerfull as a nuke we have some useful context that seems reasonable.

 

And about proton torpedos even *reaching* the Galactica? I dont thinks so. Look at this :

 

http://media.battlestarwiki.org/images/e/e6/Flakfield.jpg

 

Nothing is goign to get through that in one piece, no freaking way !

 

 

So seeing as the Galactica can put a field of fire down this thick and wide, imagine how hard it would be for Kirk et all to do anything at all as theyre bounding around from console to console from the endless percussions of all those guns. You've seen the episodes ! One bad hit and they all go flying from one chair to another. Yeah, thats all dramatic effect and not really 'likely' in a 'realistic' setting, but.. come on. Would spock even be able to *see* out from that to accurately target vital components on the Galactica with the Enterprises phasers ?

 

Another thing is that the Galactica is, despite its bulk, highly maneouverable. It can constantly turn its toughest side twoards a threat, keeping vital components out of harms way. Im sure the Enterprise is very maneuverable too, but the fact that the BSG isn't a lumbering, sloth like hulk definately gives it an advantage against even tiny ships, like the USS Enterprise.

 

 

So, still think this little saucer-shaped toy could actually put down a Battlestar ?

[VaderOnIce]

Regarding Steve's calling bullshit on my beaming chunks of ships away thing: The reason they never do it is because the ships on Star Trek have shields. Even all the bad guys. They always have to wait until the shields are down before they can do anything transport related. Including Enterprise's own shields, actually. So what they always do is fuck the other ship's shields up, drop their own shields, beam Data out or whoever, and do whatever they need to do next. And they usually do the drop, beam out, raise shields thing in about 30 seconds. As for your jump calculations during the attack on New Caprica (aka the algae planet) all those calculations were obviously performed beforehand when Galactica was wherever it was. Remember, Galactica had coordinates and data on that planet from being sitting over it for however many months they were there before the Cylons showed up. They also obviously had whatever coordinates they needed from the place they jumped to. Adama always has emergency jump coordinates set up as soon as they get somewhere. We've seen that plenty of times. It's his big "just in case." However, your nebulous "couple of minutes" will be allowed because I am gracious and eating cereal. However, since you were nice enough to allow that Sharon the Cylon won't remote control a computer system coded and set up in a way that she has never seen and would never understand in the heat of battle, and whose attempt would be stopped by Data, let's leave this "We beam and you lose" thing out of it.

 

Field of fire. Hrrm... SHields, dude. The shield on the Enterprises was used for combat, yes, but it's real main function is as a deflector shield, which keeps rocks and space debris from impacting them as they fly through space. Galactica is shooting BULLETS! None of those bullets are going to hit Enterprise (A,B,C,D, or E). Let alone the bullets from the raptors and vipers.

 

Maneuverability. Dude, look at the size of Galactica vs the size of Enterprise (kirk's, not Picard's). No way in hell BSG is outmaneuvering Enterprise. Once Enterprise has picked off the flying turds called raptors and Vipers, theoretically speaking here, Enterprise looks small enough to go and hide behind Galactica's exhaust.

 

Man, I'd love to see an image of a shot from behind Kirk's Enterprise with the Galactica bearing down on it. I didn't realize the disparity in size, but I still think Enterprise wins for these reasons.

[etru_scan]

THIS is the kind of debate i was hoping for : )

 

Thanks for clearing up the shield thing - i'd forgotten about how they have to drop them before using the teleporter. Im STILL weary of them being able to use it as a significant weapon though, cause if they could wouldn't it be the most logical, effective weapon to use the moment an enemies shields go down ? Slam an enemy's ships till they fail, blast away their weapon pods, and then teleport the back half into the front half and bam, fights over ! Wouldnt this be standard practice when dealing with persistent threats ? ( I think standard practice is actually ' run away and send a proper warship in ', but this is a hypothetical battle )

 

We all have to concede to the fact that given the right circumstances, either ship could destroy the other in moments using their advanced/specialized technology or knowledge. I'd even have to give the nod to the enterprise here given that they have 'higher' technology ( They might not be able to travel FTL, but they have teleporters. In combat i'd take offensive teleportation capabilities over jump/ftl drives anyday. )

 

So, that said .. i know we cant *actually* come to the conclusion as to who'd win with all the stops pulled, it IS really apples and oranges. But the spirit of the discussion was " Who would win in a toe-to-toe fight? "

 

Im still convinced the Galactica would win in a toe-to-toe fight. Here's why, which nobody has disputed as far as i've read:

 

 

Firepower : Galactica's main gun batteries alone might not be able to pick off small ships like raiders ( not that the enterprise has any ), but can certainly focus on a ship the size of the the Enterprise. ( we've seen them target the 'waist' of a base star, which is on the same scale as the enterprise ) So focusing this huge barrage of firepower on one little ship is going to pretty much completely cover it's facing side with a solid wall of hurt. That might not defeat their shields, but you know the crew is going to be pinging off the walls as long as they are under fire from that sort of shitstorm. And eventually, those motherfuckers are going to overheat, or some shit.

 

Then, there are the nukes. Well.. we've agreed the Enterprise could easily pick off sublight missiles and raiders no problem - i'd think even if Adama didn't realise this immediately he'd clue in pretty fast. Once that was apparent, i cant imagine he'd bother wasting life or materiel trying to get through, especially when it's obvious the Enterprise is covered by a shield.

 

Clearly the best thing they could do with their nukes would be to smuggle them inside the ships shield, and detonate. In which case we are talking massive damage/destruction for the enterprise. Even a ONE megaton nuke's blast radius would completely engulf a ship not even three hundred meters in length.. There'd be a flash, and then nothing.

 

Maneuverability : Yes, im totally going to give the enterprise the 'maneuverability' crown. The BSG has 40 control engines making it ' highly maneuverable ' but high maneuverability in a ship thats over a kilometer long and in one that less than a quarter that are different things, no argument there.

 

HOWEVER. We're not talking about darting in and out of asteroid fields, we're talking about pitching and rolling in place to keep the enemy within your firing solution. This negates any maneuverability advantage the Enterprise would have in a stand-and-fight situation, so it's moot.

 

So let me put forth my idea of how the battle would go :

 

Two ships sight eachtother, both go to battlestations at the same time and are within weapons range simultaneously. The object is for each to destroy the other, ASAP.

 

The Galactica immediately launches alert vipers and/or directs the CAP to attack the USS Enterprise with predjudice, priority given to command blister/bridge, weapons clusters, engine nozelles and launch bays. This will all be pointless, as Spock would pick them all off easily, but would give Adama valuable intel

 

As the alert vipers are being scrambled, Nukes would be prepared/cleared for launch as a precaution and the main batteries would be brought to bear. Its fair to assume that by now the Enterprise is dodging and weaving and lasing the BSG like theres no tommorow. Galactica takes damage, evasive maneuvers and lays down a field of fire so wide and thick nothing could get through, even lasers. Or if they DO get through, their efficacy is severly hampered due to all the matter they have to waste energy on vaporizing as the beams path is continually interrupted by flak.

 

As soon as the Galactica has a firing solution on the enterprise, the two are 'locked' - anywhere the Enterprise goes within weapons range, the Galactica is smothering her with heavy gun fire. Adama realises he is only impacting their shields at best, and realises the only solution is to get INside those shields. Jump coordinates are calculated, orders given and a Raptor jumps from cover INSIDE the shield radius of the Enterprise. The instant they are inside, the raptor takes its best shot at disabling the Enterprise with conventional weapons - something that wouldn't be TOO hard to do, given the enterprises unarmored hull. Even if the raptor is destroyed relatively soon, theyll have gotten shots off on high priority targets at least, and possibly disabled engines/bridge/shields in the process. At the very least, they have Kirks attention in a very immediate way.

 

Simultaneously, a nuke is loaded aboard a raptor to deliver the coup de grâce... This could reasonably take some time, so its fair to say that the Galactica is taking damage all this while, more if the torpedos can get through, less if they cant.

 

The minute that raptor jumps, its game over. The enterprise blows up, Galactica has a few nuke hits to repair, maybe some bad cuts from the phasers, but it survives in relatively decent shape.

 

Game over ! Science wessel destroyed ! Battlestar carries on to fight another day.

 

How do you see it going down??

[Nova]

My only point i want to raise is that for us viewers of star trek, we all know the deflector can be reprogrammed to cause something to happen to the ship or perhaps create a rift/anomoly/emp/etc. that could either swallow or rip apart or disable the BSG. Mind you also the enterprise which ever one does have shuttles equipped with phasers and shields. As well with the proper configuring of shields, weapons and perhaps some other fantastic device on the enterprise you could see BSG going down. All i know is that this would be an awesome fight to watch! lol

[VaderOnIce]

Bullets cannot enter the Enterprise's shields. They would scatter like space dust. The Chinese guy would shoot down the attack ships like nothing. Especially since the bullets from the attack ships would do nothing to the Enterprise.

 

Adama moves to fire nukes but the Enterprise already detected them before the fight even started with its initial scan of BSG. As soon as the bay doors open, Kirk orders phaser fire on the tubes, blowing up the nukes and killing everyone on Galactica.

 

"Whoops," says Kirk.

 

Enterprise wins.