USS Enterprise vs the Battlestar Galactica

[etru_scan]

lol.. ok, so how is Sulu going to shoot down the nuke he cant see again ? You know, the nuke that jumps from the far side of the BSG to inside the Enterprises shields faster than light itself can travel ?

 

Obviously the BSG's cannons arent going to go through the Enterprises shields - but the shields still have to expend energy deflecting all that incoming energy, even if it's not in the form of laser beams modulated to 'defeat' the shields. Ill readily concede there wouldn't be an immediate threat due to the 'primitiveness' of the threat leveled against the shield, but we're talking about volume here. lots, and lots of it. If an asteroid half the size of the Enterprise banged into it, are you saying it would just scatter like spacedust and Kirk wouldn't so much as spill his drink ?

 

The idea of the Enterprise targeting the launch tubes themselves is interesting - i'd definately say it'd be bad bad baaad news for the Galactica if those went off INside the ship. But we all know these things dont go off untill armed, which wouldn't happen untill they are almost at their target to avoid blowing the ship they came from up. Besides, we're not talking about flying them in, we're talking about jumping them in.

 

And what about the raptors jumping past the enterprises shields, taking pot shots at the undefended enterprise ? Can the enterprise shoot at ships even if they're practically touching its hull ?

[Berzerker]

How exacty does this "jump" thing work steve. your saying that a nuke can just ... appear.. inside the shields? Even if it moves faster than the speed of light it still had a physical body. It doesnt "phase" out and then phase back in. If i understand correctly it simply moves at a speed that makes it appear to diseappear and reappear? Am I getting this right. It does not "teleport" it simply moves very quickly. That being the case the sheilds would still deflect the missile. Just because it moves fast does not mean it can penetrate the shields. If you are saying that that it does indeed leave the plane of existance and then just reappear you have to take into effect the shields once again. They are designed to scatter signals. Hence why the transports dont work. They scatter energy. So to be able to have the Missile "jump" into the shields would again be unlikely due to the fact of the rematerialization process.

 

Berz out.

[Crilix]

 

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Hrmmm... If I recall correctly, in the BSG episode with the assault on Caprica to rescue the remaining militia (Those led by Sam), the Raptors had to jump into the atmosphere to avoid being detected. Okay, that's all fine and dandy but they did lose one Raptor in the jump. And it's signal was from /inside/ a mountain. So that leaves me to believe that the BSG FTL drive is, in essence, and type of transporter. Otherwise the lost Raptor would have just hit the side of the mountain and exploded.

 

But keep in mind, once again, you can't beam/transport anything beyond a Star Trek energy shield system. So if the Enterprise still has shields, nothing will get inside to deliver any kind of warhead.

[Berzerker]

Exactly what I am getting at... the shields scramble all forms of energy transfer. They make getting a target signal impossible inside the shield. Therefore if the jump required them to "arrive" inside the shield they would not be able to do so. Not saying that the shields are invincible they would just have to be down in order for anything that BSG has to get to the hull of the Enterprise.

 

Berz out.

[VaderOnIce]

Like I've said numerously. The shields can trump anything the BSG has to throw at them. And the nukes don't move at the speed of light either. So yes, Sulu could blow them up, especially since they'd be keeping an eye on them from the get go. Enterprise always scans anything new they see. That's just the way it is for them as an exploration ship. Not to mention, if you're out there in space and have those kinds of capabilities, wouldn't YOU do that first to anything that just appeared?

 

The Enterprise, just from having that tech has a huge advantage that Galactica wouldn't be able to overcome.

 

Knowledge is power. The Enterprise would have way more knowledge than the Galactica.

 

Frank out-for real, this thread is nerdy as hell, and I can only discuss unreal stuff for so long before I'm like, fuck it, it ain't real anyway.

 

By the way, BSG folks, the BSG podcasts are awesome. I know Chris listens to them (I think so). THey're really meant to be heard as you watch the episode, but they're not bad for getting you to sleep.

[etru_scan]

Yeah, nd there is a point where we're just arguing unknowables, which is where this thread was destined to die anyways.. but it's still fun : )

 

Berz, thats actually a really good point.. If the shields are deflecting any form of energy passing through them, then they would quite rightly deflect energy regardless of how fast it's moving...

 

The thing we dont know is how exactly a " Faster than light " drive works in the BSG universe... My theory is that since it's claimed to be ' faster ' than light, they are employing the popular sci-fi wormhole effect.. where the drive ' pinches ' two points in space together, and 'hops' across the pinched together portion and appears on the other side.. hence, travel at rates faster than light. My strongest hunch for this being the case is the visual effect you see when they jump - a sparkly point of light appears at the rear of the ship, and travels forward, presumably showing them moving across the pinched portion of the wormhole.

 

if this is the case, then the ship and all it's constituent molecules dont actually pass through the shields threshold per se, but simply appear behind it.. trumping the shielding effect. Im assuming the calculations are made to ensure that the faraway point you are pinching twoards is in fact ' in the clear ' and not, say, inside a mountain.. So farther jumps take longer because of the variables involved, but closer jumps can be made with more confidence/speed because the variables ( object floating in space ) can be much more reliably tracked.

 

With the enterprise dodging and weaving no doubt it's going to be tricky to get inside the shields, stay inside the shields, and not get blasted by that freaky chinaman and his quick lil fingers. Never said it would be a cakewalk. But every single Raptor the Galactica has can jump, and they can jump from the safety of the hangar decks, or at worst just outside, where they'd be shielded from attack by the Galactica's mass.

 

 

See, like i've said.. it's not really a fair fight to begin with.. and to an extent its an issue of how we define the parameters. Depending on your bias, you can establish them twoards a technological advantage ( franks argument ) or towards a militaristic advantage ( my argument ).

 

So what im saying is.. if you give technology free reign, then yes - enterprise wins. They teleport the CIC into the engines and its all over before its started. But i maintain that if you put them against eachother just using what they have in terms of weaponry - The worst the enterprise has are extra-strong nukes. Which i've never doubted would cause massive damage to a ship, even one as big as the BSG, but not enough damage to disable it before they could retaliate - IE- Jump inside the radius of the shields. Once that happens, well..

 

 

I guess it's obvious why this is an impossible debate - You're comparing apples and oranges, two ships from different universes and technology levels. Stripping away things/tactics/weapons they 'could' use to level the playing field just isn't ever going to satisfy one side or the other. Kirk is a wily mother fucker. So is Admiral Adama. Who would really outfox the other ? So hard to say.

[etru_scan]

oh yeah, and about the podcasts.. i discovered them pretty late in the game, but i've listened to every last one of them, for all seasons including the writers meetings, frak party, the three hour roundtable, etc. SOOOO worth listening to esp. if you're a die-hard. The roundtable with Ron Moore, his wife, Baltar, Apollo, Helo and a few others was just awesome, esp knowing it was recorded here in downtown vancouver. I just get chills thinking i could bump into any one of those folks if i was in the right place at the right time. ahhh!

[Berzerker]

Kirk would seduce the Silon and it would all be over hahah.

 

Steve one thing I must mention is that the enterprise travels at Warp speed... Warp speed is the speed of light. So the Enterprise in fact travels as fast as the "jump" you speak of... or similarly I would imaging. I understand you aspect of were here and no we are here jump but to be honest that doesnt float with me. The enterprises top speed is 9.6... At that speed it would appear to "jump" like the BSG ship. In fact... the Picard manouver uses warp in a battle. They warp a very short distance and attack. Impossible to target. Now if they do this against another ship of thier size.. imagine how they could pop around the bulk of the BSG ship. Warping all around it cutting it down and firing photons at all the vulnerable points.

 

The Enterprises Photon Torpedos fly at almost light speed as well so BSG would not even be able to react or track them.

 

Keep in mind I am speaking only from a Star Trek perspective as I have zero knowlege other than this thread about BSG.

 

Berz out.

[VaderOnIce]

Berz, not to be a nerd over here, but the Enterprise travels faster than light. They actually skip light speed. Warp 1 is just past light speed. The impulse engines can get it to just below light speed. But anything past that is way beyond light speed.

 

However, this is a bit irrelevant because I don't see them shooting at each when they're flying full tilt. I think the only speed that applies here is the sublight stuff they can do to move around and maneuver for battle, which, like I've said before, I think the Enterprise would win because it's smaller and quicker. It's like any of us fighting a bee.

 

Actually, yesterday, I was flailing at a bee while I was lying in the grass playing with my cousin's dog and the dog ate the bee. I think maybe he's the Cylons or the Borg, so we may have been going about this all wrong to begin with.

[Crilix]

When it comes down to the commanders, I don't quite think their the same caliber either. Basically, because Kirk's command is more techno-magic oriented. I think in all around tactics and battle sense, Adama has the upper hand. Why? The simple reason is that his whole military career has been centered around -combat- what Kirk is more exploration and diplomatic duties (Don't get me wrong - Kirk still knows his way around a fight, but Adama has spent far more time perfecting it).

 

But I gotta say, if it ever came down to boarding the enemy ship, the Galactica Marines would kick the ass of any Star Fleet phaser jockeys.

-Cril

[Nova]

Lets just hope BSG doesnt run into picards Enterprise NCC1701-E http://www.fnfclan.com/uploads/uploads/emoticons/default_tongue.png with its metaphasic shielding and quantum torpedoes or the tricked out Voyager in the last 2 episodes, ablative armor and transphasic torpedoes for the win boys!

[Berzerker]

Yea I left those arguments out cuz Steve said the NCC-1701 and as Scotty put it when they found him on the Dysonsphere "No bloody A B C or D"

 

Steve if you allow Nova's post to stand and we change generations.... BSG would not even know what happened.. litterally. Metaphasic shielding not only cloaks the ship but it puts it out of phase. It can pass through asteriods and other ships and conventional weapons do nothing. If you take the Voyager tech then the shielding and the torpedo's even if not cloaked still make it impenetrable by anything BSG has to offer.

 

Alas another time another era. Apples and Oranges.

 

Berz out.

[Nova]

Im just saying, IF they do, but i know the comparison is between kirks enterprise. Just saying they wouldnt have a shot in hell

[etru_scan]

The Warp drives are FTL drives too ?? Oh man, i didnt realize that. Not that it alters my arguments since i never gave consideration to them being used in combat, but when you think about the distances the ship regularly travels, it makes sense.. Light speed wouldn't cut it at all !

 

 

Ok, so maybe this will shock you guys, but I've considered all the tidbits and I think i have to change my mind.

 

I think that despite the fact that the USS Enterprise NX is a science/exploratory vessel, it is equipped with weapons sufficiently destructive to defeat the BSG. Big as it is, if the Enterprise is packing 'mega-nukes' that travel at near the speed of light, there is no way this can be countered without simmilar ' shield ' technology.

 

I give the BSG's sheer mass and *extremely* tough hull alot of credit, but only so much.

 

My reasoning hinged around the fact that it would take time to wear down the BSG to the point that it could no longer function, and that in that time Raptors or a nuke itself could be jumped inside the radius of the shield, spellnig doom for the enterprise.

 

The real problem is that yes, it might take a minute or so for the crew of the enterprise to realise ONE proton torpedo isn't going to do the job, but that time advantage to the BSG would be negated by the fact that hey - it would take just as much time for the crew of the BSG to realise the Enterprise is shielded, to calculate a jump within the shield, and to actually execute the jump and take out critical systems onboard the Enterprise.

 

In a BEST case scenario for the BSG they could get a raptor inside the shields and disable the enterprise with a lucky shot while Kirk is still monologuing on the bridge... the enterprise would be shredded within Galactica's firing solution like an aluminum meat pinata possibly even before getting a chance to deliver any more proton torpedos.. But thats a *best**best*best* case scenario, and admittedly very unlikely.

 

Also, I think given the enterprises maneuverability ( i didn't consider they ability to use warp speed in such short bursts ), it could easily outpace the Raptors stuck within it's shiled radius ( unless the attached themselves to the hull, i guess ) and either smash them against the inside of the shield as it accelerates away, or leave them falling behind/outside of the radius within moments anyways.

 

The only and real hope to defeat a ship enclosed in a shield-bubble is to obviously get inside that bubble. Im sure given the time to do it they could definitely jump a nuke inside those shields, but I have to be honest and admit that even Kirk isn't just going to sit around while they wheel the nuke from it's tube, through the BSG, re trigger it, load it onto a raptor, launch, calculate the jump and then detonate it inside the shields.

 

If the Galactica could buy itself the couple minutes, minimum, it would need for this, well, then.. they'd have a shot. If the Enterprise did what ill describe, then there obviosuly wouldn't be any time at all.

 

And thats pretty simple. If i were piloting the Enterprise, and it was obvious my phasers were only slashing up the outside of the ship ( doint damage nd, some probably heavy but not nearly enough to destyroy/disable ) then i would turn to my Big Guns, the Proton Torpedos. Since i'd have to be constantly moving to stay out of Galactica's firing solution as it pitched and rolled to try and fix on me, it would seem natural to employ the ships higher maneuverability to the disadvantage of the BSG. That is to say - Travel in some insane, random orbit around the ship at the maximum Proton torpedo range, and fire off all your torpedos.

 

SOME might get caught in Galactica's firing solution, destroying or deflecting them, but im goign to guess it would only take about a half dozen direct hits to disable the BSG. We've seen them take a nuke directly, but never 6. Six would at best leave the ship seriously fucked up and in the worst kind of trouble.

 

If the nukes are coming from thousands of kilometers away, travelling at light speed and from random directions.. Im not really sure what COULD defend against that, even if you *had* shields. It's an awesome ammount of firepower coupled with a tactic that cant be responded to in less time than it takes to execute.

 

 

So there you be - i officially concede that the BSG could not whistand a determined attack from the USS Enterprise NX ( or any model ) given the disparity in technology and employable tactics.

 

*hangs head*

 

I was so sure, before.. then when i considered how fast the ship could move and still use it's Proton torpedos given that everything is computerized/ AI controlled.. It's like comparing cyber oranges and mushy apples !

 

sweet debate tho : )

[Berzerker]

Well put steve.. In Fact the Picard manouver is effective because it makes the ship appear in 2 places at once. Where it used to be and then where it ends up after the short warp jump and stop. The shield is the biggest advantage. Granted it does take damage and energy when struck but its designed for much bigger yeilds than the BSG has. BSG's armaments would be like a fly hitting your front window. If BSG had a similar shield it would be no contest BSG hands down even with its smaller yields.

 

Berz out.